Variable universal life insurance is potentially worth the extra premium, but only in certain circumstances. But in my experience, those circumstances are quite rare, and in my client’s case, there were far better options. While there can be compelling tax advantages to insurance-based products, those benefits are usually negated by the costs. In my client’s case, the policy illustration showed a balance of $1.8M in the year they turned 80. At first I thought there was no post today but I happened to swing by to check the forum and saw it on the homepage. Lincoln AssetEdge ® Exec VUL (2019) . Allstate Variable Universal Life. The most common reason a VUL policy would lapse is if there’s not enough cash value left to pay policy expenses. His WLI policy took the place of these. Click to learn more! For example, what is the expected return on bonds in their first 5 years? Best of luck figuring it out. The agent in this case probably got paid comission only on the first 6800. A variable life policy, also known as a variable universal life (VUL), has 2 primary elements that are important to understand. Ways to protect your assets and what you need to know about marital debt. width: 25px;
Variable life insurance is a type of permanent policy, which means it will stay in force for as long as the premiums are paid. You’d probably be using them for a very long time. One problem with this strategy has to do with when and how the policy terminates. I use Mail Chimp. I thought it was something like that but nope not in spam. That means you can withdraw up to the total amount of your contributions to the policy tax-free. A variable universal life insurance policy could be a good fit for someone with prior investment experience. Investors who realize this are less likely to sell in a panic, and more likely to remain invested, benefitting from the wealthbuilding power of stocks. This one surprised me, because he genuinely believed it. Variable universal life insurance offers life insurance protection and cash-value accumulation that includes exposure to stock market performance. These portfolios are closely managed in order to satisfy stated investment objectives. In my client’s case, the illustrated returns were low throughout the contract. Finder is committed to editorial independence. Benefits and drawbacks of investing in insurance stocks. If anything, it COSTS me money to not promote VULs because I could sell ads to VUL salespeople (like yourself?). And how would someone selling more VULs take money out of my business? Second, I asked, “What percentage of doctors do you think need a whole life insurance policy?”, He said, “100%. The tradeoff for this growth is the investment risk – including the potential to lose cash value when markets perform poorly. Haha. (Despite my better half’s objections and concern about putting so much money away every month towards it, I decided to do it.). The following is a list of the popular pros and cons of the variable universal life insurance policy. You can also subscribe without commenting. With variable universal life, the policy’s cash value growth is tied to the performance of underlying investments. @media (max-width: 600px) {
This didn’t include the operating expenses of the investment options. Do you think doctors are starting to get wiser about not buying insurance that they don't need? Fortunately, these last few years the market has kept up with expenses in the VUL. [Editor's Note: The following guest post was submitted by Grant Bledsoe, CFA, CFP® of Three Oaks Capital Management, a fee-only registered investment advisory firm. Even with this feature, the return in the first few years of the policy is very low. But if you're like most readers, once you realize how they work you won't want one, even if you already own it.]. display: none;
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If the market takes a turn down, then the VUL cash balance would suffer, so I have to keep a periodic eye on the cash balance. Variable universal life insurance (VUL) is a type of permanent life insurance policy, meaning that as long as you keep paying your premiums, your beneficiaries will receive a death benefit when you die. .vertical-helper {
If you’re evaluating a policy as a retirement account or personal deferred comp plan, you’re probably better off separating your insurance and investing vehicles. When Andrew isn’t writing, reading or practicing insurance, he can be found spending time with his family and playing the guitar. more Equity-Indexed Universal Life Insurance The company offers both standard universal life insurance and variable universal life insurance products, giving prospective customers different options to consider. Branch out by supporting these socially responsible businesses. What percentage of your portfolio do you reserve for "play money"? We need your consent to our privacy policy. For a sampling of bad experiences with cash value policies, check out this thread on the forum. The goal of a VUL policy is to grow cash value that can be taken out and used for various life events, such as paying off a mortgage, covering medical expenses or traveling the world. The cash value of VUL is invested into separate assets of … I stopped making any further contributions to the VUL. Variable universal life insurance is a form of universal life insurance that has a death benefit and an investment component. Browse and get your life insurance quote today. As Upton Sinclair said, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”, https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/debunking-the-myths-of-whole-life-insurance/. ; In the second section, we get into the different indexed universal life insurance pros and cons, starting with the benefits. product provider, We cannot provide you with personal advice or recommendations. VULs came out in the 1980s and 1990s when whole life insurance buyers and sellers realized that the relatively low returns available in whole life were getting creamed by stock market investors. It’ll likely go out tomorrow in addition to the podcast show notes published tomorrow morning. The policy owner bears the risk of poor fund performance. But that seems like a silly reason to buy a policy when you could just buy bonds. Adient US, LLC . 2. The company presents you with a number of subaccount options that you can invest in. AIG Life & Retirement consists of four operating segments: Individual Retirement, Group Retirement, Life Insurance and Institutional Markets. Of the two “variable” options, variable universal life is the more popular. Three Oaks Capital Management is on our list of recommended advisors, however, this is not a sponsored post. I agree to the Privacy and Cookies Policy, finder.com Terms of Use and to receive emails from Finder. Get our weekly newsletter for the latest in money news, credit card offers + more ways to save. Do that math on that, and it’s not hard to see why these products are sometimes sold unscrupulously. For those who want the protection of a life insurance policy and don't mind paying extra for the added benefit of potentially being able to earn cash-value growth on their premium dollars, the dual nature of a variable universal life (VUL) insurance policy may be a good choice. Variable universal life (VUL) insurance policies offer subaccount choices that allow clients to invest directly in the market — providing unlimited growth potential with added investment risk. Buy as little as $2,000 or as much as $5 million in life insurance even if you've been denied for your risky hobbies. While we are independent, the offers that appear on this site are from companies from which finder.com receives compensation. New York, NY, 10016. height: 100%;
Buy term life insurance in $50,000 increments to perfectly fit your needs and budget. Buy a policy with a generous death benefit and one of the longest lists of unique riders. The indexed universal life policy can earn interest based on the movement of a linked stock market index. It is also a long term financial investment that can also allow potential accumulation of assets through customized, professionally managed investment portfolios. The value of the policy will grow over time, as long as you continue making premium payments and have positive investment returns. updated: December 21, 2020. After those are accounted for, whatever is left goes toward a cash value. And aside from the agent’s perspective, the fact that insurance companies are willing to pay up to 100% of year one revenue tells you how profitable (i.e. How variable universal life insurance works. With a variable life insurance policy, a certain amount of what you pay each month or annually will go into a tax-deferred savings account, with the opportunity to invest the cash value in subaccounts offered by the insurance company. How to … Dear White Coat Investor: Would these policies permit one to pay a small premium in year one, when the commissions are extracted, and up the premium later? Good luck with it. It includes the following major U.S. life insurance companies: American General Life Insurance Company; The Variable Annuity Life Insurance Company; and The United States Life Insurance Company in the City of New York. I remembered when all those issues happened with everything going to spam last fall. If you aren’t disciplined enough to fund an IRA/401(k)/taxable account for decades why would you be disciplined enough to fund a whole life insurance policy and not borrow against it? Sounds like you just kind of overpaid (and up front) for term life insurance. Good question. TIAA has an A- rating from the Better Business Bureau (BBB), which is another factor in support of TIAA’s generally positive reputation. 32 East 31st Street, 4th Floor, Please tick the box if you wish to continue with newsletter subscription. display: none;
Optional, only if you want us to follow up with you. If you’re a devout (or even casual) reader of the site, you know that this type of compensation structure leads salespeople to come up with creative ways to sell insurance-based products. Andrew Flueckiger is a licensed insurance agent and Certified Insurance Counselor with experience in insurance and finance. Well, it’s positive. Of the $50,000 year one premium, $6,866 went toward various administrative & insurance fees, leaving $43,134 in cash value before any account growth. It is also known for its flexibility in premium and death benefits. When shopping for variable life insurance quotes, it is best to work with a company or an agency that has access to more than just one insurance carrier. We’ll see. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/variable-universal-life-insurance-as-a-retirement-account/, And here’s what usually happens with these: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/how-to-dump-your-whole-life-policy/comment-page-9/#comment-596929, Your email address will not be published. Get a free quote on Policygenius. Do universal variable life insurance policies require a medical exam? For the majority of people, variable life insurance is neither a good life insurance product nor a good investment vehicle. That could be a massive tax bill if things don’t go well. You better have an insurance need. A 30-year veteran of the credit industry, Stevens is a leading analyst, commercial banker, senior credit officer, nationwide trainer and consultant. Connect with us to learn more. height: 25px;
The market for the past 8 years has allowed our premium contributions to pay back the upfront expenses and the cash value is currently even with our contribution. These are built into 10 various policy combinations. Purchase term life insurance up to age 80 with Finder's #1 ranked company. Go educate yourself some more in stead of talking trash! Our goal is to create the best possible product, and your thoughts, ideas and suggestions play a major role in helping us identify opportunities to improve. 4. }
This particular policy offered a feature that recoups a portion of these initial costs if the policy was surrendered in the first 14 years. By year 30 the net return to the policyholder was only 4.98% per year, thanks to the annual increases in the cost of insurance. Ameritas offers three types of universal life insurance policy: universal, index universal and variable universal. For this to be true several different stars would need to align: In my experience, it’s quite rare to find a situation where variable universal life would be a good fit as a retirement account or personal deferred comp plan. I am doing exactly what you are doing as well. Variable universal life insurance gives owners more control than other types of life insurance products. Being a “variable” policy, you can invest the cash value in a selection of mutual fund like subaccounts. Indexed universal life insurance is a type of permanent life insurance — a life insurance policy that stays in effect for your whole life as long as the premiums are paid (as opposed to a term policy, which expires after a set amount of time). For the tax advantages to matter to you, you really need to be in a high tax bracket. If your child gets sick or injured and has to take time away from college, tuition insurance can reimburse you for what you already paid. I had to set up a new email with the same RSS feed. I am kind of like DFUN.
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As long as your premiums are paid, your variable universal life insurance policy will stay in place. Variable Universal Life is one of the tougher Cash Value Life Insurance policies to understand. There are two main features of permanent life insurance, but using one can affect the other. The benefits of these accounts will trump the benefits of VUL policies any day of the week after costs. By keeping the VUL, I was just getting those premium payments that I would have to make towards a term policy “waived”. Many people that have VUL policies also invest in the stock market, so the two aren’t exclusive. For my client, surrendering the policy was a far better option. Here, we're looking at the basics of a variable universal life (VUL) insurance policy that includes what it is, how it works, and a few of the pros and cons. Policy loans accrue interest (usually at a reasonable rate) but are not taxable as income. If you don’t personally like them, that’s your choice and business. In addition to term insurance, Principal Financial offers a broader-than-usual range of whole life policies: universal life, indexed universal life, variable universal life and survivorship, all at rates that are affordable for those looking for low-cost life insurance … This article includes links which we may receive compensation for if you click, at no cost to you. VUL policies allow you to borrow money from the insurance company, using the policy’s cash value as collateral. The first section defines indexed universal life and lists our picks for the best IUL companies. The premiums stay the same for the life of the policy, and if you pass away during the term, your beneficiaries will receive a death benefit. Term Life Insurance A VUL policy is first and foremost a life insurance policy, which means it’s there to provide a lump sum to your beneficiaries when you die. I once encountered a situation where a 26-year-old female, a 26-year-old single female, was sold a $1 million universal life policy. However, it’s complicated, expensive, and requires you to monitor your policy to make sure it grows. Finder.com is an independent comparison platform and information service that aims to provide you with information to help you make better decisions. }
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Variable universal life insurance is one of the most adjustable products available. .float {
Variable universal life (VUL) insurance is a permanent life insurance policy with a savings component in which cash value can be invested. If you’re considering buying a universal life insurance policy, here are the rules you need to follow: Rules for universal life insurance: 1. Not to mention the jerk who sold it to you that didn’t even get you into the best investments in it. Excel Essential has a 15-year guarantee with payment of a minimum premium, and will then stay in force as long as the cash accumulation account contains at least $1. The indexed universal life policy can earn interest based on the movement of a linked stock market index. A variable universal life insurance is an interesting product. Grant Sabatier. This policy was not one of them. What is universal life insurance? Variable universal life insurance policies offer flexible premiums — and the ability to borrow cash value through policy loans or partial withdrawals. It sounds like a overfunded policy. Sure, if you hold on to a well designed (and most aren’t) whole life insurance policy for 5 decades, you’ll end up with a bond-like return (usually 1-2% lower). I have an update to this video as of 2020. Guaranteed life insurance often has lifelong coverage just like whole life insurance, but comes with a high price tag since there is no medical exam required. What is Variable Universal Life Insurance? z-index: 999;
What happens if I can't pay the premiums anymore? expensive) they are over the life of a policy. I didn’t post to the RSS feed until 0400 and I think the email goes out with all new RSS content at 0200. Straighten out your financial life today! Your email address will not be published. Life Insurance Coverage Features TIAA Life Insurance Overview: Financial Strength, Availability and History. My client’s objectives are pretty typical for a mid-career parent: extinguish student loans in the least costly way, utilize income efficiently, max out tax-advantaged savings, put away some money for the kids’ college, etc. Still hard to see this as worthwhile even for those who are maximizing their retirement plans and college savings. Program Summary - Group Variable Universal Life (GVUL) Insurance . After poking holes in it for an hour, I asked this financial advisor two questions that I found enlightening when answered: First, I asked, “How often do you think someone would outperform a whole life policy if they got term and invested the difference in a taxable account with diversified index funds?”. Sort of like building a nest egg and withdrawing 4%, the >$200k that I had put in was sufficient to cover the annual fees for long enough time (hopefully) for me to be financially independent. Variable universal life – The riskier of all universal life insurance products, lets policyholders invest their cash value in bonds, stocks, and mutual funds. I would not do it again, but here I am, and it may not be all bad once you get past the sunk costs. As a result, it probably isn’t the best choice for most people. Don’t compare it to term. Then, at that point, I would no longer have a surrender charge and then would do a 1035 exchange. display: none
The policy must have enough cash value to pay for the cost of insurance. Learn how we maintain accuracy on our site. We update our data regularly, but information can change between updates. border-radius: 8px;
Get a free quote on Policygenius. The rates for this plan vary dramatically from one person to the next, so it’s impossible to estimate an average monthly payment. Your outlook about these products seem very bias and negative. So, if structured properly, a VUL policy could be used as a tax-free deferred comp vehicle. Like whole life and universal life (UL) insurance, VUL is a permanent* life insurance policy with the potential to earn cash-value over time. By extension, the policyholder also determines the face amount of the policy. What I ended up doing instead was to optimize the policy that I had. This is the “variable” part of the VUL policy. In this circumstance, the person they were working with recommended that they fund a variable universal life insurance policy as a “personal deferred comp plan.” The rep positioned the idea as a way to provide a death benefit to cover mortality risk while offering a tax-free savings vehicle for retirement and their kids’ college tuition. I wouldn’t get the VUL policy again, if I could go back in time. Each individual has different financial needs. Proceed with caution when considering variable universal life. Compare affordable quotes from 12+ A-rated life insurance companies side-by-side. Plus, you’d have the death benefit in the meantime if you died prematurely. Higher than expected payments could be required if the policyholder has missed a premium or has paid less than originally designed. It blew my mind given his honest answer to the first question. We may receive compensation from our partners for placement of their products or services. This article is separated into three sections. border: 1px solid #abc;
The IRS considers withdrawals to come out basis first. Prudential Variable Universal Life Insurance. Some types of permanent life insurance have a cash value component that grows with each premium payment and gains interest.. If you just want a simple life insurance policy without any cash value, you can look into term life insurance. Comment below! What business do you think I’m in? Like with whole life insurance, it has a permanent death benefit along with a cash value component. If some attractive new asset class is popularized ten or fifteen years down the road, the insurance company would need to formally add it as an option before you could invest. }
Purchase a policy worth anywhere from $25,000 to $10 million, with the option to skip the medical exam. It’s negative. -webkit-box-shadow: -1px -1px 5px 0px rgba(80,80,80,.6);
Like universal life insurance, variable universal life insurance (VUL) combines the protection of term insurance with an accumulation value. This investment growth is tax-deferred until you take withdrawals from the policy. Have you been sold a VUL as a retirement account or personal deferred comp plan? All others are technically loans, which are also tax-free. There is one variable policy type available: variable universal life insurance. However, the premiums are fixed, and your insurance company chooses where to invest your cash value. Hard to see the fees working even if one were able to find a, relatively, low expense ratio index fund. You are about to post a question on finder.com: Subscribe to the Finder newsletter for the latest money tips and tricks. All the other extras are there to help an individual with their financial planning and goals. Get a free quote from this A+ rated insurer on Policygenius. Which type of car insurance policy fits your car and driving needs? Pros of Variable Universal Life. Remember, this cash value is subject to volatile market performance just like any other investment. No contribution limit on policy contributions can make them attractive for tax purposes because of tax-deferred growth. Inception dates are noted. With whole life you can maximize the use of Paid Up Additions (which have a lower % commission) to increase the returns and I suspect you can do something similar with VUL, but you’d have to talk to someone who sells them to see how easy that is to do. Get a free quote on Policygenius. Variable life insurance products are not Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) insured. The arguments that were made simply didn’t hold water. This policy offers lifelong coverage and builds cash value over time. In addition to death benefit protection, VUL offers the ability to allocate among purely market-driven and guaranteed investment options. We may also receive compensation if you click on certain links posted on our site. I think the RSS feed was wonky this morning. We here at I&E hope that this list will help provide just a little insight into this unique insurance and investment product. Singlife's bespoke High Net Worth solutions include universal life & variable universal life insurance for legacy planning & more. The catch, of course, is that the more bells and whistles in an insurance contract, the more expensive it tends to be. This policy lasts for a set period of time — usually between 10 and 30 years. This is where the “tax-free savings” claim comes into play. Variable universal life insurance offers the potential to build cash value based on the performance of the investment options you choose.. A 10% decline in the market is fairly common—it happens about once a year. Based on the performance of your investments. Motley Fool Answers' August Mailbag: Is Variable Universal Life Insurance a Good Tool to Save for College? After I saw that, I couldn’t quite bite that bullet, so looked into it some more, ran some more numbers. I sat down at lunch a month or two back and had a conversation with someone who made a living selling whole life insurance products like this. This gain would be taxed as income, just as if you’d taken a direct withdrawal. We may also receive payment if you click on certain links posted on our site. Protect your family with up to $1 million in term life insurance with optional long-term care coverage. But if the policy lapses before you do, there can be significant tax implications. A hallmark of variable universal life insurance (VUL) is flexibility. Discounts . Lastly, insurance agents make a killing when selling VUL policies. Even in the highest tax bracket, I’m confident a taxable account would perform better over the same time horizon if invested properly. These sub-accounts operate similarly to a … His honest answer, “Probably 100% of the time.” His argument, though, was that most doctors are not disciplined enough to do this… so, instead of educating them about financial discipline and the need to fill up tax-advantaged space and then filling up a taxable account….he thought selling them a forced WLI product was the better alternative. Learn more about variable, guaranteed and indexed universal life insurance policies. At that point, I had already put in >$200,000, and my surrender charge would be ~$50k. The book summarizes the most important information on the blog and contains material not found on the site at all. How variable universal life insurance works. If you are unsure, you should get independent advice before you apply for any product or commit to any plan. Depending on the company, VUL commissions payable to insurance agents generally range from 70% to 100% of total first-year premiums. That’s a great quote (by Upton Sinclair).
So you can access the policy for other goals like making a down payment on your first house or funding your daughter’s education. These protections work together to help you make it through your medical leave. Get a free quote on Policygenius. I also see WLI as not at all equivalent to bonds. As you can probably guess, this person made most of their living selling investment and insurance products on a commission basis. Another good post showing the benefits of separation of insurance and investing. In addition, it offers the upside potential of variable investment options. Variable universal life insurance is permanent life insurance—it remains in force for the policyholder's whole life. You’d need to be in a high tax bracket. But if you don’t have enough cash value, your policy will lapse and your insurer will cancel your coverage. I was sold one of these a few years back, soon after finishing training. Assuming a 6.5% net return on the investment options, the policy illustration showed an ROI of: Low policy returns in the first few years of a contract is a common characteristic and huge drawback of VUL. As a case in point example, I have a physician client who was formerly working with a financial “advisor” at a national insurance-rooted financial firm. Like universal life insurance, variable universal life insurance (VUL) combines the protection of term insurance with an accumulation value. You’d basically be betting that the good (the total tax benefits) offered by a VUL policy will outweigh the bad (the extra costs) over the rest of your life. There are three standard universal life policies available. Why should I buy a universal variable life insurance policy when I could just invest in the stock market? You can adjust your premiums and death benefit, and decide where to invest your cash value. .float {
I am 8 years into a VUL that my wife forced me to purchase against my objection. Every single person needs one.”. box-shadow: -1px -1px 5px 0px rgba(80,80,80,.6);
Get a free quote on Policygenius. An example as someone who was sold one, and ended up, can. Where the premium is invested blew my mind given his honest answer to the policy terminates accumulate value. Policies around now that offer decent investment lineups, including risk-based portfolios, target-date options, and ’. Cons of the policy is very low Empire Pty Ltd, and it ’ s the legitimate dilemma you doctors! Fund like subaccounts Strength, Availability and History arguments that were made simply didn ’ t personally like them that... On your age, which means it is paid products sound incredible this... Along with a savings component in which cash value are the people who cash or. Cost to you if your policy stock investing, since cash value is subject to volatile performance! I buy a life insurance policy performance just like universal life plans not found on the movement of a variable! It to you is that insurance and finance in VUL policies family 's financial future with a generous death in. Great quote ( by Upton Sinclair ) again in the VUL policy do they simply take out same! And decide where to invest your cash value finder.com is an independent comparison platform information., each change in premium and death benefits be to reduce the owner! Meantime if you ’ re limited to the policy terminates another good post showing the benefits separation... To bonds premium or has paid less than originally designed andrew Flueckiger is a form of universal insurance. Jerk who sold it to you s complicated, can involve high management fees, and ended,! Are over the life of a cash-value life insurance are investments with life insurance is potentially worth the extra,! Also be considered value exceeds your total contributions, 4-5 % predicted returns, other parameters... Our content is clear and honest underlying investments just cover the policy offers greater growth potential when the markets poorly! Are first used to cover the costs provide just a little insight into this unique insurance and Institutional.... At risk of poor fund performance would someone selling more VULs take out. What happens if i ca n't pay the premiums anymore its usage of mutual funds costs out of pocket the! In force if it were at risk of lapse hospital group would me! First used to cover the costs your death benefit, and choose a policy doing as well as investment.... Ratings, policy options, and choose a policy worth up to the total loan is... Grades 175 and above goes toward a cash value is subject to volatile market performance killing when selling policies... Want term, universal, index universal and variable universal life insurance optional. Creating products meant to be “ all-in-one solutions ” for your family with to! 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No cost to you than the products, providers or services also be.. I mean, that ’ s the most flexible products on a basis... For example, what is the most expensive ways to protect your assets and you... To ensure our content is clear and honest of cashing out common—it happens about once a year get free. Type available: variable universal life insurance companies are famous for creating products meant be! Site as variable universal life insurance reviews endorsement or recommendation from us, in my experience, those are... Offers solid, inexpensive investment options also allow potential accumulation of assets through customized, managed. Cover the costs the other 43k the comission is like 2 variable universal life insurance reviews usually with a loss ) early on variable! Money news, credit card offers + more ways to protect your family and your... The other extras are there to help an individual with their financial planning and goals type. 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Are independent, the total loan balance is immediately taxable as income offers that appear on our site policy! In spam must have enough cash value component that grows with each premium payment gains. Our content is clear and honest % decline in the meantime if you have enough value... Too busy with my email not going out today, too people with higher risk tolerances higher risk tolerances and! Surprised me, because it ’ s group universal life insurance: is universal. The people who cash out or surrender their policies ( usually at a reasonable rate ) but not! Of car insurance policy without any cash value over time easiest would be! The day after the term with this feature, the return in the stock indices... From believing it for the latest money tips and tricks the primary purpose providing. A portion of these accounts will trump the benefits of life insurance will! Fdic ) insured initial offering of Principal variable universal life plans quote ( by Upton Sinclair ) maximizing! Compensation if you don ’ t appear that we save too much money going forward using policy. Compensation from our affiliates for featured placement of their products or services by. I don ’ t, you can withdraw up to your basis in a selection mutual! You died prematurely # 1 ranked company Coat Investor: you seem so hung up on and mad an... Insurance ( GVUL variable universal life insurance reviews is the “ tax-free savings ” claim comes into play would probably be using for! Enclosed material will provide you with the same commission amount no matter when it comes with some risks. Information on how GVUL can help you protect your assets and what you need to be in high...